OK, absolutely huge topic, volumes could be written, etc. etc. Let's just touch on a few points:

a passion for art

These men, and I include myself, have not the slightest interest in art. 'Art' is the word typically used by society at large for what the designers do. Us? We're just making stuff.

achieve a higher level of skill than their predecessors ...

All of us involved with this traditional Japanese printmaking thing have to face the bald fact that we are in a situation where none of us are able to practice the craft at anywhere near the level that it was once practiced. And speaking truthfully, none of us would want to, if it meant living the way that those guys back then did. (I'm speaking of such things as strict masters, extremely long working hours, inability to have any life other than the bench, etc. etc.)

So, after generations of workers have passed living with such an attitude, of course nobody here looks backward; nobody. (And of course, I haven't even touched on the physical side of it - the incredibly poor quality of the tools/materials available to us these days ...)

for their names to go down in history ...

I think you're being a bit unreasonable to expect that these guys would have such thoughts. Would you ask this of the guy who came to fix your plumbing last week? (I'm not being sarcastic, just trying to point out that it's not a consideration ...)

just because they love doing it ...

Almost none of these guys chose this job. They got into it because their father did it, or because when they came out of middle school the print shop down the street needed a new guy, or ... whatever. After they were on the job for a few weeks, you imagine them as falling into a few categories: 1) "I can't stand this; I'm going to get out of here and look for something else". 2) "What a crap job; but what else could I do ..." 3) "Hey, this is cool; I'll stick with this". 4) "Whatever ..."

I guess we would like to think that the men we now deal with are all in the 3rd category, but the reality is that not all of them are ...

money is all it means to them ...

Well, suppose I said this to you about your job at the hospital? I guess the main reason you are there is to get a salary, I don't really know. But don't you do a basically good job there? These guys are self-employed, and as such, 'money/time' issues are a daily part of their thinking, just as they are with me. When I'm talking with Numabe-san about coming out to my place for a day of proofing, he is right away going to start his mental calculations (as he should); "Can I get away for a day? Is Dave going to pay me enough? Do I really want him to think that he can 'call' me over there anytime? Do I want to let him stand there and tell me what to do? Cheeze, what a waste of time ..." ...

A couple of weeks back, as this 'Conversations' website was just starting up, I made a post about a bad experience with a craftsman, and questioned the validity of the whole venture. Well, welcome back ...

The other day I phoned up XXX-san (not the same guy as referred to in that post, but let's keep names off this ...) to see what was happening with the block set I had sent him a few weeks earlier. I wanted to see how the proofing was coming along ... He didn't have a proof yet, which was actually OK, because there was something I wanted to talk to him about, a question of how to do the gradations. I tried to explain, but couldn't create the mental picture for him, so I asked him to go and get the block in question so he could see what I meant.

He put me on hold ... one minute ... two minutes ... three minutes ... then came back. "Ummm, I've been cleaning up here a bit this weekend, and umm ... I can't .... umm ... find the blocks just now." (This from a guy who lives in one room of his parents' house).

I didn't fight with him about it, just closed off the conversation. But obviously, what he has done is exactly the same thing that the other printers here do when they get a job they don't want/can't handle. They sub-contract it to somebody else. I had offered this kid a premium price for this job, and he has gone and sent it out to somebody else, at what price I have no idea. I can only assume that he had no intention of telling me about this. The very first job I gave him ...

What's next? What can I say ... when I get the package of prints, I'll open it up, and what I find there will determine ...

But over the past couple of months I have certainly developed a new appreciation of just why the Yoshidas - for more than 50 years - kept to their strict policy of having printers come to their place to do all the work. Not one block ever left that building ...

You don't have me convinced for a minute that you are not interested in art. You have and continue to raise your own craft to a level of art, which is what you have been working at for the last 20 years. You select the prints you carve and print with some eye on the art contained within, after all, that's a good part of why you chose the piece to reproduce, I suspect.

If _you_ were simply in it for the money, you would undoubtedly have had better luck pursuing a career in a computer related field, where you have extraordinary talents as well.

I beg to differ, that you are just 'making stuff'. Anybody out there believe that?

speaking truthfully, none of us would want to, if it meant living the way that those guys back then did. (I'm speaking of such things as strict masters, extremely long working hours, inability to have any life other than the bench, etc. etc.)

Rather sounds like somebody I know. :)

I haven't even touched on the physical side of it - the incredibly poor quality of the tools/materials available to us these days ...)

But then you have in many ways much better tools. How about that color copier you just rode your bike over to run off some copies on? Or the electric lights that better illuminate the work you do, or that Wacom Tablet and stylus you traced the scroll hanshita with?

I think you're being a bit unreasonable to expect that these guys would have such thoughts. Would you ask this of the guy who came to fix your plumbing last week?

No, of course not. But my household plumbing is not a work of art. Why then did a number of publishers, such as Watanabe, often credit the carver and printer in the print margin?

As for money being all it means to them, I guess I have come to expect that people associated with _art_ have more than an interest in making money alone, they want to achieve something. Something individual, creative, expressive, beautiful if possible, and often the people associated with that endeavor feel somewhat the same. Not all of course, there is a great business in art and some people certainly specialize in that alone. But the people that are generally close to the creative part seem a little more imbued with a greater interest in it than just business. Maybe I'm wrong, hope not.

I agree with you, Gary, that I just don't believe that all you, Dave, are concerned about is business (even if the ultimate outcome is not defined as art, it must be something akin to beauty, surely!).

Apart from that, however, I do start to feel apprehensive about the outcome of the mokuhankan project when reading your (Dave's that is) recent telephone conversation with xxx-san printer revealing the fact that he probably subcontracted the whole printing job to somebody else.

I can't believe the dishonesty in all this! I mean: why can't these people be straight and tell you in advance that they cannot, or are not capable of handling the job given to them (and I really don't care whether they are Japanese or not, including all of the local sensitivities involved). Let's talk good old _honesty_ first, before considering _art_! If I were in your position, Dave, I would really feel despondent about this, and am starting to wonder whether I was right in encouraging you to continue this project earlier on (which doesn't change any of my enthousiasm in the _intended_ output)...

If _you_ were simply in it for the money ...
I just don't believe that all you, Dave, are concerned about is business ...

Oh, I didn't say that! Without wanting to lay down on the couch for analysis here, I think I can say that my main motivation is basically to make 'neat' stuff (and I suppose, to feel like I am somebody a bit 'special' making things that are a bit 'special'). But I'm serious when I say that I'm not interested in art (and neither are nearly all of the men I know here working in this field). If I try to grab at an analogy here, can't you imagine the case of the guy who works in a book publishing company - and whose job is the physical production of the actual books: selecting the proper paper, hiring the designer to do the layout, making sure the fonts are properly selected, etc. etc. If you ask him about the literary content of some particular book, he may well say "Eh? That's none of my business ..."

Of course I recognize that these prints have a kind of 'art value' to some people; it's just that I myself am not so interested in that end of it ...

But then you have in many ways much better tools. How about that color copier ...

Yes, of course I have access to things they didn't have, and for the preparation stages, such things have been invaluable. But when that's all behind me, and I'm at the bench, there is nothing left but wood, steel, pigment and paper, and in all four of those areas, current supplies are deficient. I'm not really complaining about that - as it is I who is trying to 'live out of time', but I tossed that in as being another factor in helping you to understand why craftsmen these days don't have much of a feeling that they can be 'better' than those who came before.

Why then did a number of publishers, such as Watanabe, often credit the carver and printer in the print margin?

No idea; have any of you read about this in the various book on shin-hanga? All I can guess is that he was trying to tap into the western conception that 'handmade = good', and to take advantage of the general feeling in the west that craftsmen in the 'east' were somehow 'masters', etc. etc., when in truth, they are/were no better/worse than their counterparts anywhere. The physical distance obviously brings a feeling of 'exoticism' to stuff like this ...

I can't believe the dishonesty in all this! I mean: why can't these people be straight and tell you in advance that they cannot, or are not capable of handling the job given to them ...

It's a bit interesting that this episode came up just now, because I remember talking with my brother - a professional musician - about this same sort of thing in his business (He's living/working in Germany). One of the things he does is what is known as 'contracting': he is hired by a promoter/producer to supply a group of musicians for some function (concert, dance, show, etc.), so he gets on the phone to people and puts together the 'band'. It's not rare at all that when the group is assembled for the show, that some of the people he booked aren't there themselves, but have sent 'deps' (deputies) in their place, as they have double-booked themselves, and can't be in two places at once. He has learned to live with it, although the down-side is that invariably, people don't send deputies who are too good, as that would give the contractor ideas about who to hire next time!

My point is that nobody concerned thinks that this practice is 'dishonest' ... it's 'just the way it is'.

Apart from that, however, I do start to feel apprehensive about the outcome of the mokuhankan project ...

If I were in your position, Dave, I would really feel despondent about this ...

Hey, 'despondent' isn't a word in my vocabulary; please don't even think about such things! As for the future of the project, please remember that I am not going into this with any great illusions of grandeur. In an earlier discussion with somebody (maybe Marc or Gary, I can't remember), I pointed out that 1) 'I am not Watanabe', either in temperament or in resources, and 2) 'times have changed', and this whole thing is quite conceivably unsound economically anyway.

There's just this: carve a few blocks ... get some stuff printed from them ... put them out on show ... maybe some people might like (a few of) them ... carve (or have carved) a few more ... try and get some of these craftsmen into the boat with me ... etc. etc. ... If I just potter around with that - while keeping my 'normal' printmaking life also going along beside it - then at some point down the road, I'll turn around one day and see ... "Hey, look at all those neat prints that weren't there before!"

Maybe that's setting my sights a bit lower than some of you would like, but at this point, I'm just trying to be a bit realistic about this!

Dave

(P.S. Hilo Bay carving coming along well ... seven sides done, three left ...)

My point is that nobody concerned thinks that this practice is 'dishonest' ... it's 'just the way it is'.

_I_ do! If I am looking for someone to do a particular job, and take the time to ask around for references and hold somebody's work to a standard I want done on my job, and hire the person, I damn well expect _he's_ the one who's going to do it. If he sends someone else out, that defeats the purpose of my earlier search and I consider it a scam. He's fired. Or, I tell the guy his substitute better achieve the level of quality I expected of his work, and if he doesn't, he doesn't get paid.

If somebody wants to buy a print from me, I don't send them someone else's work and expect they'll be just as happy with that, and they'll be back as a customer next time. I'll have to disagree with you on this one Dave. It may be common but that doesn't make it right, or acceptable.

No idea; have any of you read about this in the various book on shin-hanga? All I can guess is that he was trying to tap into the western conception that 'handmade = good', and to take advantage of the general feeling in the west that craftsmen in the 'east' were somehow 'masters', etc. etc., when in truth, they are/were no better/worse than their counterparts anywhere. The physical distance obviously brings a feeling of 'exoticism' to stuff like this ...

No doubt crediting the carver and printer on Watanabe's prints may have been a result of Western influence in the sense of personal identity. I don't know that it was done before that very often. But I would suggest that doing so not only credits those people, it in a sense is an advertisement for them as well. If they did an excellent job, they could take credit. If they did a lousy job, they could take the blame. At least in today's world I would think that little 'advertisement' wouldn't be an undesirable thing for these guys, and perhaps a little bit of an incentive to do good work.

After all, even plumbers have their names on their trucks to advertise. :)

In comparing Dave's work ethic to that of carvers/printers from 50-100 years ago I would say that the pc and the internet play a key role. Craftsmen from the old days did not get much recognition or feedback. They got up, went to work, did what they were told and went home after a long day at the bench. This is much like workers at a printing plant in the last century running giant printing presses. It was just a job. Except for top men in their field that were hand picked by artists like a Hokusai or a Jacoulet or publishers like Watanabe all others lived quiet lives. Dave in the other hand gets feedback on his work and is in touch(this section of the website for instance) with many people in the field of printmaking from all over the world. He does not work in a vacuum but rather uses the internet to elevate his knowledge and share his work with others. Can any of us imagine Dave without his Mac ? Would his print output of the last five years been possible had Dave lived in seclusion ? Would the fire still burn to make beautiful prints ?